Blog/2005-11-25

Basic grammar rules - one page scanned as jpg file †

50RulesWritingGood.jpg in Arvhieves

Pronoun use on telephone conversation. †

英会話で、” はい、私です。”の英訳、代名詞の用法について

Positive and negative evidence †

The point I tried to come across in class last night (11/25/05) is that a dictionary lookup or web search, and for that matter corpus research does give most of the time 'positive evidence," but not necessarily 'negative evidence." That is, you can be assured when you find some collocation or usage in such searches or research, but that does not mean that some other usage is wrong just because you can not find one in the corpus or dictionary.

Corpus and web resources †

Links:(only a few examples)

BNC http://www.natcorp.ox.ac.uk/corpora.html
Brown Corpus http://corp.hum.ou.dk/corpsearch/search/
Prof. Tohno@Meikai Univ. http://leo.meikai.ac.jp/~tono/
Web Concordancer, etc. http://www.edict.com.hk/default.htm

Examples: 'This is she/her speaking.' †

For example, an expression: 'This is she speaking,' is found easily on many web pages that discuss 'telephone formula or dialogs,' but not so easily with its counterpart: 'This is her speaking.' If you give up on searching or asking a few native speakers for their intuition, you can not ever find that 'This is her speaking,' is in fact more natural than the former: 'This is she speaking.'

Caution on the use of one source over the other †

Of course there is another side of pitfalls in taking only native speakers' intuition or judgement. Their judgement also involves 'preference,' and 'naturalness,' and even 'acceptability.' Take for example, a complement structure of 'I dislike cooking,' vs. 'I dislike to cook.' Granted that the former is much more frequent in actual use, the latter is also listed as 'correct,' in one heavy desk dictionary.

Memo sent to Freshmen English class †

This memo was sent to stuents in Freshmen English the other day.

Sent: 2005/11/21 (月) 0:53~
To: Eng1z_KGLaw@yahoogroups.jp~
Subject: Pronoun use on telephone conversation. 
英会話で、”はい、私です。”の英訳、代名詞の用法について~

英会話で、” はい、私です。”の英訳、代名詞の用法について。 I mentioned in the 3rd period class last week that we have a peculiar way of using pronouns in telephone conversation. The following are 3 pairs of pronouns with '1st person," "3rd person male," and "3rd person female," i.e. "I vs. me," "he vs. him" and 'she vs. her." 「おれ、俺」詐欺が横行していますが、話者が男性、女性で英語は代名詞が異なります。

"Which are correct, acceptable, and which are incorrect?" †

The question is どれが正しい用法か？

1) It is me.~
2) It is I.~
3) This is he (speaking).~
4) This is him (speaking).~
5) This is she (speaking).~
6) This is her (speaking).~

My initial intuition/ judgement: †

I was not 100% sure, but I mentioned that I would accept Nos.1, 3, and 6, rather than Nos. 2, 4 and 5. The correct and incorrect matrix from my intution can be shown in the following table: (O 正；X　誤）
I me
X O

he him
O X
she her
X O

Web search over the weekend: †

I guess my natural intuition is right, but I promised that I would check with grammar books or some web pages over the weekend.

I found opinions are divided by visiting various web pages on this usage: About 60% of the pages go against my intuition or judgement above, and I got really annoyed that my English is getty rusted or I am too conservative. My memory is getting weak, but I have to rely upon my English grammar learning in the last 40 years or so and my own natural intuition as a teacher of English. Of course, I have to quickly admit that language usage changes through generations, and prescritive grammar is not the same as acceptability.

A) VOA site: Wordmaster October 10, 1999 †

　"This is she/her speaking." Let me assure you, though, that I am still right as the following authentic VOA site pinpoints this issue at the following web site:

http://www.manythings.org/voa/wm/wm045.html

to support my stance or judgement.

VOA's Wordmaster~
October 10, 1999 - Listener Questions~
By Avi Arditti and Rosanne Skirble~

INTRO: This week our Wordmasters answer some of your questions.
AA: I'm Avi Arditti with Rosanne Skirble.
RS: This is she. Or should I have said, this is her?
AA: That's a question asked by Bikash, Nirmal and Manoj -- three students in Birgunj, Nepal.
RS: They e-mailed us, wanting to know which is correct: "this is her" or "this is she."
AA: It's grammatically correct to say, "This is she." So if someone asks for you on the telephone, you would answer:
RS: "This is she, this is Rosanne," although grammarian and author Pat O'Conner tells us that in common usage these days it's considered more natural to say, "This is her."

Which is correct? from VOA wordmaster site: †

As you can see from the above, and the following web site, both Nos. 4 and 5 are correct,

○　4) This is him (speaking).~
○　5) This is she (speaking).~
◎　6) This is her (speaking).~

and I still feel more comfortable with No. 6, rather than No. 5. Yes, English grammar is fun and yet tricky.

My judgement: †

？　5) This is she (speaking).~
○　6) This is her (speaking).~

Yes, This is her (speaking).
But the following are unaccepted or incorrect. for telephone lines 「どなた様でしょうか？」「はい、私です」の訳としては。

?　1) It is me.~
X　2) It is I.~
X　4) This is him (speaking).~

It is me. -- when to use? †

1) 'It's me.', however, is often used for identifying yourself at the door, or. over the phone 「俺、おれ」in lieu of 'This is xxx speaking.' for example, where 2) 'It's I.' is not natural.

Summary: accetability, correctness: from VOA Wordmaster site: †

In summary, the acceptability or correctness is indicated with ○(正) , △　and X, which stands for "OK ," "maybe," 'NOT OK(誤)," respectively:

○　1) It is me.~
X 　2) It is I.~
○　 3) This is he (speaking).~
X 　4) This is him (speaking).~
△　 5) This is she (speaking).~
○　6) This is her (speaking).~

B) Other web pages which accepts: "This is she speaking." †

http://www.speechtechmag.com/issues/7_6/cover/1473-1.html

This page, however, does not dicuss 'correctness or otherwise' of "This is her speaking."

Subject: Pronoun use on telephone conversation.
Whom Should I Say Is Calling?

Pronoun use on telephone conversation.~
Speaking.~
This is he (speaking).~
This is she (speaking).~
It is me.~
But not, "It's I."~

Whom Should I Say Is Calling?
November/December 2002
By Dr. Caroline Henton and Dr. Geoffrey K. Pullum

Prescriptive Grammar From a Hundred Years Ago Can Ruin a Good VUI
It's a simple enough idea: voice user interfaces (VUIs) should use ordinarry language, as it is spoken today. They shouldn't be using it in some "corrected" form to satisfy the nostalgic longings of pedants for some imagined purer form of English.
The entire article may be viewed at:
http://www.speechtechmag.com/issues/7_6/cover/1473-1.html - Do not click an icon here -

Blog / 2005-11-25

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